In its continuing efforts to keep the public informed about the ongoing admissions litigation, the University of Michigan makes these transcripts of the trial proceedings in Grutter v Bollinger, et al., Civil Action No. 97-75928 (E.D. Mich.), available to the University community and general public. As is often the case with transcription, some words or phrases may be misspelled or simply incorrect. The University makes no representation as to the accuracy of the transcripts.
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1 (Afternoon session.)
2 -- --- --
3 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
4 BY MS. MASSIE:
5 Q Professor Allen, before the lunch break you gave us a
6 bit of context for the study you did of feeder schools to
7 the U of M Law School and the law school itself and I want
8 to turn back now to the study you did for this case.
9 First, could you just tell us what were the goals,
10 what were the central goals for this study?
11 A The central goals for the study were to assess the
12 campus racial climate, both the law school and in the feeder
13 undergraduate institutions, and then -- and assess it with
14 an eye toward establishing whether, indeed, whether those
15 campuses, campus environments were racially hostile, and
16 secondly, to examine the consequences of campus racial
17 climate for academic outcomes.
18 Q What do you mean?
19 A Student grades, student retention, student
20 satisfaction with the college experience.
21 Q And I think you mentioned earlier that there were some
22 focus groups you carried out --
23 A Yes.
24 Q -- in connection with that study?
25 A That's correct.
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1 Q What's a focus group?
2 A A focus group is a research strategy that employs
3 guided discussions; that is, you get together a group of
4 individuals, usually about five to ten people, and using a
5 developed, scientifically developed protocol go through a
6 series of questions with that group and facilitate, guide
7 the discussion, and that's with an eye toward eliciting
8 information which will then be analyzed around the research
9 question at hand.
10 MS. MASSIE: If I could approach the witness.
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 MS. MASSIE: Actually, Judge, there are a bunch of
13 exhibits that I'm going to try to enter through Professor
14 Allen and I'll just do them all now.
15 BY MS. MASSIE:
16 Q What I'm going to be focusing you on, Professor Allen,
17 is the report you did for this case. I'm going to ask you
18 to identify it so we can have it in the record, but there
19 are another number of other things that are in the binder
20 that I'll be moving in at the same time, if that makes
21 sense.
22 A Okay.
23 THE COURT: Yes.
24 MS. MASSIE: I'm providing the witness with
25 Tabs 156, 157 and 158. Could we take a look at Tab 156,
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1 please.
2 THE COURT: I didn't realize those tabs were so big.
3 MS. MASSIE: I know, and 156 in particular is huge.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 BY MS. MASSIE:
6 Q What is Tab 156?
7 A Tab 156 contains my curriculum vitae, along with a
8 number of papers that I have published on the status of
9 black students at the University of Michigan in particular
10 and on the status of black students in higher education.
11 Q And this was something that you prepared in
12 conjunction with your retention as an expert witness by
13 the Intervenor in the undergraduate affirmative action
14 challenge?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q Which is Gratz versus Bollinger?
17 A Yes.
18 Q If you could take a look at Tab 157 for me. If you
19 can just let me know when you've got it.
20 A Yes.
21 Q What's that?
22 A Tab 157 contains the final report titled, Affirmative
23 Action Educational Equity and Campus Racial Climate, A Case
24 Study of the University of Michigan Law School, along with
25 appendices.
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1 Q And that's the report that you prepared for the
2 law school case?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q And the undergraduate report was incorporated as a
5 supplement --
6 A Yes.
7 Q -- to that report; isn't that correct?
8 A Yes, it is correct. That's Tab 158.
9 Q That's a supplemental undergrad report?
10 A I'm sorry, the report, the supplemental undergrad
11 report is titled Campus Racial Climate at the University
12 of Michigan-Ann Arbor, A Case Study, and it is the study
13 of the questions of campus racial climate and academic
14 outcomes for students of color at the University of
15 Michigan-Ann Arbor, and it also includes appendices.
16 Q And these items were all prepared by you personally
17 and specifically?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q I want to turn you now, if you can reach down there or
20 I can come get it, to Tabs 159 and 160, and if you could
21 tell us what those are, please.
22 A Sorry, 159 is actually in this book.
23 Q Is it? I apologize. I'm sorry.
24 A Tab 159 is the expert report prepared by Professor
25 James D. Anderson, and it is an analysis of -- it first
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1 includes his -- it's an analysis of historical patterns of
2 racial exclusion and race relationships at the University
3 of Michigan.
4 Q And 160?
5 A 160 is a report prepared by another expert, Dr. Joe
6 Fagin, and this particular report is titled Negative Racial
7 Climates and Critical Mass Issues at Predominantly White
8 Colleges and Universities.
9 MS. MASSIE: And finally, I'm going to approach
10 the witness, if that's okay, Judge, with the Grace Carroll
11 supplement, which I handed out to everybody earlier today.
12 THE COURT: What number do you want to make that?
13 MS. MASSIE: 212.
14 THE COURT: I think, don't you have a 212?
15 No, that's right, 212.
16 BY MS. MASSIE:
17 Q And tell us what that is, if you would.
18 A The report was prepared by Dr. Grace Carroll, also a
19 member of the research team, and it focused on -- I'll use
20 the title: Case Studies of Success of Black, Chicano-Latino
21 and Native American Alumni of the University of Michigan Law
22 School, so the study of successful graduates who had been
23 admitted under affirmative action at the University of
24 Michigan Law School.
25 Q And that, too, was a supplement to your report?
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1 A This is correct.
2 MS. MASSIE: Judge, I would like to move 211, 212.
3 THE COURT: Hold on. Let's do them one at a time.
4 Let me take a couple of notes.
5 MS. MASSIE: 211 is Professor Allen's CV.
6 MR. KOLBO: I have no objection, Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Received.
8 MS. MASSIE: 212 is the Grace Carroll supplement.
9 MR. KOLBO: Your Honor, I just want to raise an
10 objection for the record. In a number of these cases,
11 including this particular exhibit, what's being offered
12 is another expert's report who isn't here, so I can't
13 cross examine Dr. Allen effectively on somebody else's
14 expert report, so --
15 MS. MASSIE: Grace Carroll was a member of the team.
16 She was available to be deposed. She was on our witness
17 list for some time, in fact, and Dr. Allen as an expert can
18 rely on the findings and the work of the people on his team
19 whom he directed.
20 MR. KOLBO: I certainly agree, Your Honor, that an
21 expert can rely on hearsay, but the hearsay is not typically
22 admissible, and that's what is happening here.
23 THE COURT: I agree. I can't admit it. I won't
24 admit it, because it's not his report and so forth. He
25 certainly can rely on that and any other kind of data that
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1 he has used to ultimately reach his expert conclusions.
2 MS. MASSIE: And you would have the same position
3 on the Fagin and Anderson reports, I presume?
4 THE COURT: It's not a position, it's pretty much
5 the way I was taught the rules.
6 MS. MASSIE: Okay.
7 THE COURT: The same thing about Fagin and Anderson,
8 which is 159 and 160. If he used those in rendering his
9 expert opinion, he certainly can use that knowledge as he
10 can in any other kinds of readings or studies or any of that
11 nature, but the reports themselves would not be admissible.
12 MS. MASSIE: Okay. Well, what I will do then is
13 move into evidence 156, 157 and 158, which were prepared by
14 Professor Allen personally.
15 MR. KOLBO: And Your Honor, I feel less strongly
16 about this, but I do want to lodge an objection to the
17 extent that Dr. Allen's testimony -- Dr. Allen's report
18 includes a lot of hearsay. He has discussed these test
19 results from these focus groups, I appreciate he can rely
20 on that, even though I think that that in itself is
21 inadmissible, but I don't feel as strongly about that
22 objection, Your Honor, as the ones I just argued.
23 THE COURT: Again, I think that will go somewhat to
24 its weight and so forth. The Court will allow 156, 157,
25 158, which have been reported to be Dr. Allen's own works
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1 and own report.
2 MS. MASSIE: Okay.
3 THE COURT: Which obviously can contain hearsay,
4 but I don't think that makes a difference.
5 MS. MASSIE: I'm sorry?
6 THE COURT: To address the Plaintiff's concern, it
7 obviously contain hearsay, but that doesn't in itself make
8 those objectionable.
9 MS. MASSIE: Sure.
10 BY MS. MASSIE:
11 Q Tell us about the focus groups that you conducted.
12 You mentioned that focus groups are guided. Did you have a
13 protocol or some other kind of instrument for guiding the
14 discussion in the focus groups that you carried out for
15 this case?
16 A Yes, I did. I basically designed a research process,
17 trained the researchers in that process, and then monitored
18 their work to be sure that they adhered to the process.
19 A central element of the process was to develop and
20 finalize a protocol that is a set of questions around the
21 research issues of assessing campus racial climate and
22 assessing how campus racial climate, if at all, affected
23 the academic performance and academic outcomes of black
24 students, students of color and female students.
25 Q And is -- if you could, if I could turn you to
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1 appendix one in your -- in Tab 156, please.
2 I'm sorry, 157, excuse me, your report for the
3 law school case.
4 A Yes, I have it.
5 Q It may -- it should be appendix one.
6 A I have it.
7 Q What's that?
8 A This is the general form of the racial climate
9 protocol used to guide each of the focus groups, and I say
10 the general form, because we made minor modifications to
11 deal with the membership of the specific focus group, so
12 changing pronouns, for example.
13 Q And in the -- so it contains a kind of introduction
14 and then if you could just talk us through the key things
15 that the focus groups were oriented around as reflected
16 in the protocol.
17 A Okay. The key protocol questions, as was indicated,
18 you have the introductory question, and then a series of
19 questions specific to the student's campus, asking the
20 student whether he or she had ever experienced racial
21 discrimination, or if it was the case of a focus on a group
22 of women, gender discrimination, probing the students on any
23 accounts they might offer to try and get a sense of whether
24 they were talking about discrimination that was more
25 structural or institutionally based or whether they were
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1 talking about micro forms of that discrimination; that is,
2 discrimination that was the product of an individual
3 decision or individual actions.
4 THE COURT: The answers, are they recorded?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, they are, and transcribed.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 THE WITNESS: And then we -- should I talk a bit
8 about what we do with the data?
9 THE COURT: I'm sure we will get it. I'm just
10 curious, you know, I have been to commercial focus groups,
11 you know, where the client stands behind the window and they
12 show you all the products and what do you like about them
13 and all that and they don't record those. I just wondered,
14 you recorded them because you needed that data in order to,
15 I suspect, put it together for your report?
16 THE WITNESS: We actually record the answers for
17 accuracy, transcribe them, have them typed up and then
18 subject the text to a systematic analysis, and that analysis
19 takes the form of reading through in very minute detail the
20 responses, developing the themes and the general points and
21 ideas that are forthcoming in that focus group, and then
22 moving from there to a categorization of the responses and
23 an analysis and then linking that information, which is
24 now in the form of data, back to some of the originating
25 research questions.
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1 THE COURT: So the purpose of the group is to probe
2 and then you analyze later?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
4 MS. MASSIE: And Judge, the transcripts have been
5 marked. They are not in the binders, because they are too
6 voluminous.
7 THE COURT: I'm not necessarily interested in those.
8 I'm more interested in his opinions.
9 MS. MASSIE: No, I understand.
10 THE COURT: I was just curious as to what the
11 procedure was.
12 MS. MASSIE: We will probably be trying to -- we
13 will see whether it makes sense and would be helpful to
14 move them in at some point later on.
15 THE COURT: Fine.
16 BY MS. MASSIE:
17 Q Did you conduct any of the focus groups yourself?
18 A Yes, I did.
19 Q And did other people conduct some of the focus groups
20 as well?
21 A The focus groups were conducted by some other members
22 of the research team.
23 Q And as you were just discussing with the Court, they
24 were recorded?
25 A Yes, they were. And I edited all of the final
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1 transcripts and participated, of course, and helped to
2 guide the actual analysis and interpretation phases.
3 Q What do you mean, you edited all of the final
4 transcripts?
5 A I mean I read them thoroughly and just simply worked
6 through in conjunction with the -- if it was a case where I
7 had not conducted that focus group myself, worked through
8 with the researchers to be sure that they had edited the
9 text and that they had taken care of those issues of
10 accuracy.
11 Q When you say edited, what do you mean?
12 A In some cases transcripts are -- well, just simply
13 reading the transcripts for accuracy and making the
14 necessary corrections.
15 Q Is it true that some of the -- some of the times the
16 transcription would contain words that were hard for the
17 transcriber to hear?
18 A Yes, either hard for the transcriber to hear or at
19 times it was a kind of idiosyncratic regional usage or
20 cultural usage that the transcribers might miss and so it
21 was absolutely necessary for the people who had conducted,
22 the person who had conducted the focus group to go back
23 and correct such omissions or such typos.
24 Q And you did that while listening to the tapes;
25 correct?
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1 A Absolutely.
2 Q You're confident that the transcripts are full and
3 accurate renditions of the focus groups, except where there
4 is an elision indicated?
5 A That's accurate, yes.
6 Q And then if you could elaborate a little on the
7 process that you then go through of analyzing the focus
8 groups.
9 A Well, as I was saying, the process is one of producing
10 transcripts that contain and present the full record of the
11 focus group, questions asked, the answers received, and then
12 we treat that text, that transcript as data, as empirical
13 data, which is then subjected to analysis.
14 The analysis is not unlike most data analysis.
15 Essentially what one does is to work with a voluminous set
16 of information and try to understand the patterns within
17 the data set, and in this case the patterns within the
18 responses, and working in terms of the categories that
19 emerge from the focus group.
20 Now, focus group is a methodology somewhat different
21 than standard quantitative analysis, in that the standard
22 quantitative analysis, there is an approach such that you
23 impose your categories on the data; that is, by the -- by
24 virtue of how I construct my survey or questionnaire, I have
25 a predetermined notion of what will be important themes and
127
1 questions and so all of my questions are organized around
2 those presumed themes.
3 With the focus groups and with the qualitative
4 methodology, you approach the issue of trying to understand
5 patterns from the other end; that is, beginning with
6 people's verbalizations, beginning with their perspectives,
7 and then trying to extract the order out of the information
8 that they have presented.
9 So in one case you're working from the top down;
10 that is, with the quantitative approach. The qualitative
11 approach, you're working from, quote, unquote, the bottom
12 up; that is, using people's own comments, discussion and
13 construction of the question to arrive at a general
14 understanding, or a more focused understanding, I should
15 say.
16 Q Were there constraints across all the different
17 campuses, were there constraints of size and interview
18 personnel and so forth that you need to tell us about
19 to understand how the focus groups were set up?
20 A The one constraint -- I mean, obviously there were
21 several constraints and the least of which being that they
22 were working with limited resources and very real time
23 pressures, but the information generated is very reliable
24 and quite dependable, and so to the extent that there were
25 limitations of concern, none of that would rise to a level
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1 such that I would not have confidence in these data or the
2 decisions or expert opinions that I would express based on
3 the data.
4 Q And I apologize, my question was not very clear. I
5 meant something much more concrete, just how big are they
6 supposed to be, were you alone when you conducted the focus
7 groups, would there be one researcher, two?
8 A Okay. The ideal model is where you have a facilitator
9 and then a recorder in some of the instances, and ideally a
10 facilitator who is one of the members of the major -- of the
11 three co-principal investigators, and in some instances I
12 actually conducted the focus groups alone and played both
13 roles, but feeling comfortable doing so, because I was so
14 close to the study and I knew that research and the paradigm
15 and it's just something that I have done for years, and most
16 importantly because there was the backup of a recorded tape
17 and later typed transcript.
18 Now, in instances where I was the sole person
19 playing the role of facilitator and recorder, the strategy
20 or the methodological adjustment were to make sure that
21 there were two tape recorders running for the entire span
22 of the focus group and that way not an utterance was missed,
23 because normally what the recorder will do is keep a
24 parallel set of notes, more so as a backup to a failed tape
25 recorder. And so the adjustment that I made to make sure
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1 that we did not lose data and information because of a
2 failed tape recorder was to have two of them running at
3 the same time to produce both transcripts and then to
4 reconcile the transcripts.
5 Q And as I understand it, there was one tape that was
6 accidentally erased before it could be transcribed from the
7 focus groups; is that right?
8 A We lost one tape and I think that was a relatively
9 small focus group, but yes, only one was lost.
10 Q What campus did you do the most focus groups on?
11 A At the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor campus.
12 Q Why?
13 A Because the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor was at
14 the center of the study, both in terms of the law school,
15 obviously, as well as in terms of the undergraduate feeder
16 from the college of literature, science and the arts.
17 Q And is the top feeder school to the U of M Law School;
18 isn't that right?
19 A Yes, yes.
20 Q Had you had the opportunity to do research
21 specifically on the University of Michigan previously?
22 A Yes, I had.
23 Q What was that?
24 A I have been doing research focused on and around the
25 University of Michigan since, interestingly enough, before
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1 I arrived to the campus in 1979, so as early as 1978 the
2 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor was a participating campus
3 in my national study of African American students, how they
4 experienced their educational careers on predominantly white
5 campuses and their academic outcomes.
6 And from '78 into the present I have done numerous
7 survey studies of the University of Michigan campus in
8 conjunction with the University administration, have written
9 two reports using the University of Michigan retention data
10 set, which as I shared earlier today was the data file
11 maintained on all entering students for -- from the point
12 of entry until their point of separation from the University
13 or five years, whichever came first, and a series of other
14 surveys, as well.
15 And I'm sorry, one other earlier group focusing on
16 interviews with individual students.
17 Q So the Ann Arbor campus was somewhat familiar terrain
18 to you?
19 A Very much so. It was one of my common research sites.
20 Q Tell us a bit about the history of questions
21 surrounding race and racial dynamics at the University of
22 Michigan-Ann Arbor.
23 A The history of race and racial dynamics at the
24 University of Michigan, not surprisingly, reflects the
25 history of race and racial dynamics in the larger society
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1 and in higher education generally. The University never
2 had an official policy of exclusion of black students, but
3 in fact, operated in such a way that black students were
4 excluded from the University. Those black students who
5 attended the University were excluded from living on the
6 campus, having housing on the campus. And so that is a
7 historical record that simply reminds us that there was a
8 time when education was formally and in some parts of the
9 country legally segregated by race, and in other parts of
10 the country where the legal separation was not on the state
11 laws, on the state law books, but in fact, those schools
12 functioned in such a way as to exclude blacks from
13 attending, in many cases, what were publicly supported
14 institutions that they were helping to pay for. The
15 University of Michigan was in company with other schools
16 that were functioning that way historically.
17 And so you have seen over time a situation where
18 race has been problematic on the University of Michigan
19 campus, but you have seen some improvement, and as you read
20 many of the historical studies you see that one of the
21 major breakthroughs came at that point when the University
22 committed itself to fuller inclusion of black students, but
23 it goes without saying or it's important to add that those
24 changes in the University often came after black students
25 and other students in multiracial coalitions were pressuring
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1 the University for changes; that is, in terms of mass
2 demonstrations and civil disobedience and so on.
3 So the story that history tells us about the
4 University of Michigan campus is a story that repeats for
5 many predominantly white campuses in this country. It's
6 just that those schools reflecting a societal tradition and
7 practice had blocked access to higher education for black
8 students and blocked it solely on the basis of race.
9 Q I would like to turn your attention to the focus
10 groups themselves now and ask you about the findings, the
11 conclusions you were able to arrive at coming out of those
12 focus groups.
13 A If I may, I would like to refer to my notes, to the
14 report.
15 Q Please do.
16 A To the report that you put before me.
17 I think those focus groups and the findings from
18 them were definitive in their communication of the fact that
19 the University climate was one that in many respects was
20 racially hostile and that further this negative racial
21 climate had very clear negative consequences for black
22 student outcomes, let's say, in terms of grades earned,
23 grade point average, in terms of the kinds of aspirations
24 that those students set for themselves post undergraduate,
25 in terms of their retention rates, and in terms of just
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1 their general sense of satisfaction and belonging at the
2 universities.
3 Q And can you tell us particularly how the racially
4 hostile climate was expressed, how it took shape?
5 A The racial climate was expressed and had hostile
6 elements on several levels. First of all, there were simply
7 institutional practices that communicated to -- that
8 communicated to black students that they weren't welcome
9 or that functioned in ways that limited black access and
10 participation, so a certain set of academic requirements
11 for graduating high school seniors could and did represent
12 a barrier to applying to the University, being admitted,
13 and if and when there was a case where those black students,
14 for example, attended schools or spent their years in a
15 K through twelve experience, that did not allow them the
16 opportunity to gain those qualifications.
17 So that was one institutional barrier, just
18 institutional barriers having to do with admissions
19 requirements that were unfriendly to black students
20 and related other institutional practices.
21 For example, a practice that seems on the face of
22 it to be quite reasonable, that in order for one to receive
23 funding from University sources or from Student Government
24 for a particular interest group, student interest group,
25 you have to have sufficient numbers.
134
1 Well, institutionally that discriminates against
2 black students if the practices of the University, the
3 traditions of the University, have worked in such a way
4 as to depress black student participation, so you never get
5 enough black students, for example, to qualify for funding
6 of, say, a group like the Black Student Premed Organization.
7 So those are some of the kinds of institutional barriers.
8 Or the institutional barrier of the sort that at
9 the time most of the fraternities and sororities gained
10 their houses early in the University's history at a time
11 before black students came, so by the time black students
12 arrived the property was either spoken for or so expensive
13 that it was beyond the reach of -- reach and ability of a
14 black student fraternity or sorority to purchase a house,
15 so you had a situation where all the houses, fraternities
16 and sororities were white, just because of a culmination of
17 historical barriers and discrimination. So discrimination
18 at that level and racial dynamics that were disadvantaging
19 at that level.
20 And as well as more immediate and in-the-moment
21 racial barriers having to do with discrimination by faculty,
22 discrimination by peer students, repeated patterns of
23 harassment by police, unfair application, if you will,
24 for example, of rules governing parties that are given by
25 white-identified versus black-identified student groups.
135
1 I mean, in the one case white groups would often be
2 allowed to sponsor parties without any requirements of an
3 investment in security, whereas black students had to invest
4 sizable sums in security. So those are some of the kinds of
5 patterns, discriminatory practices by faculty with respect
6 to how they interacted or did not interact with black
7 students versus their interactions with white students.
8 Q Let me ask you to turn on the more interpersonal
9 expressions of racial hostility and racial discrimination.
10 Let me ask you to turn to page 56 of your report, which is
11 157. Your report, 157.
12 Page 56 of 157. I think I said 57, actually.
13 A Yes, I have it.
14 Q Everybody there?
15 These are your findings coming out of the focus
16 groups?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q For the feeder colleges to the U of M Law School?
19 A Yes, that's correct.
20 Q I'm going to go through these, Professor Allen. I may
21 skip one or two that I think are needless in our focus here
22 today, but I'm going to ask you to just tell us what you
23 mean by each one and develop it a little with examples from
24 the focus groups, if that makes sense, or examples from your
25 other research, if that makes more sense.
136
1 You say that white privilege and entitlement are
2 important and overarching features of the undergraduate
3 racial climate on the campuses you study.
4 What do you mean?
5 A I simply mean that it came through very clearly from
6 these data and this particular finding as confirmatory of
7 research in other settings and using other data focused on
8 the University of Michigan that the climate is characterized
9 by white privilege, and the simplest way to put that is that
10 whiteness is viewed as normal and being not white is treated
11 as abnormal, and so there are consequences for students in
12 terms of the degree to which they feel a part of the campus,
13 the degree to which their experiences are incorporated, the
14 degree to which they have faculty at the institution who
15 look like them or in their programs who are of their same
16 race and ethnicity, so that that privilege of whiteness is
17 such as to disadvantage students that are not white in the
18 various sectors of campus life and in their classrooms, in
19 their social experiences, and in the academic outcomes.
20 Q And how were you -- how were you able to gather
21 information about white privilege through the focus groups?
22 A The theme of white privilege bubbled up from our
23 analysis of transcripts, you know. We started with the
24 very general questions about campus racial climate and from
25 student responses and the discussion that ensued, the coding
137
1 of the, data produced this very clear notion that the campus
2 was characterized by white privilege, by the advantaging of
3 whiteness in all of its aspects.
4 Q You also talk about male privilege as being a
5 similarly overarching feature of life on the campuses
6 you studied.
7 What do you mean by that?
8 A Simply, again, the campus was interpreted as belonging
9 to men more so than to women and so the institution, many
10 of the institutional features, many of the practices, many
11 of the rules advantaged males, empowered them and made
12 them comfortable in reminding females that this place
13 belongs to us and you are simply here by permission or an
14 interloper.
15 Q And is that similar to the way in which white
16 privilege functions on a campus, in your view?
17 A It's similar. They have different features, but
18 they are very similar features, in that each reinforces
19 a societal hierarchy. So in the society at large that
20 message goes out that whites are the majority and that the
21 institutions, the practices, the values should reflect this,
22 and that other groups are secondary or minority groups.
23 And simply with women, power resides with men, and
24 so the message goes out that male values, male points of
25 view, men are more important than women in terms of what
138
1 matters, and I guess bottom line is if you look at the
2 larger society and you look at this campus as a large --
3 reflection of that larger society in each of those arenas
4 that is very important, males out number females, whites
5 outnumber blacks, in many instances blacks are just absent.
6 Q And I'm going to go now to the third finding that you
7 list here, which is that within the negative campus racial
8 climate the educational playing field is uneven for students
9 of color compared to white students.
10 What do you mean by that?
11 A I mean the students simply reported example after
12 example that made clear that they -- that black students
13 or students of color were not on an equal footing with
14 their white classmates. So they would give examples, for
15 instance, of study groups forming within the sciences, so
16 you had a situation where black students were already
17 under-represented in the sciences and you had a situation
18 where study groups were an essential element of the
19 educational experience in that disciplinary area, and
20 student after student would report that study groups would
21 form around them and exclude them, so leaving them outside
22 an important element of the educational experience, and
23 flat out, because in many instances the students reported
24 other students saying to them in no uncertain terms that
25 you're black, you're not qualified, and that you'll pull
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1 our study group down, so we're not going to include you,
2 because we don't think you're qualified.
3 And this was before -- you know, study groups formed
4 sometimes on the first day of class, before there is any
5 demonstration of who is qualified and who is not qualified
6 and who is talented and who is not. So that was one
7 example.
8 There were other examples of unfair grading by,
9 often, teaching assistants or professors who in their
10 approaches did not speak to or address the needs of those
11 black students, those Chicano-Latino students or were just
12 not very sympathetic working with those students. So you
13 had examples of student experiences that made it very
14 clear that black students and students of color carried an
15 additional burden in terms of their educational experience.
16 For instance, a link that ties us back to
17 institutional shortcoming, as well as making this point
18 about the uneven academic playing field is that often those
19 black students and those Chicano-Latino students had two
20 jobs, they had to be good students, excellent students, and
21 they also had to spend time constructing a social and group
22 environment that was there and available for white students.
23 So white students did not spend their time founding
24 organizations and trying to advocate on behalf of their
25 group to the same extent that black students had to.
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1 So literally, that had academic consequences, as
2 well, and it was due to the fact that the uneven playing
3 field had produced a situation wherein black students wanted
4 to have organizations on that campus, they wanted to have a
5 social presence, if they wanted to have a voice, they had to
6 develop this from scratch themselves and spend inordinate
7 amounts of personal time working on those kinds of important
8 dimensions of their experience, giving themselves a voice,
9 making themselves a presence, but with consequences for the
10 amount of time available for studying.
11 And by contrast, for example, their white fellow
12 students could come into an environment where many of the
13 organizations that were essentially for them socially had
14 already been established and had larger memberships and
15 were in many respects self-continuing.
16 Q What stereotypes, if any, did students who
17 participated in the focus groups either talk about
18 explicitly or proverbially in their experiences to be
19 present on campuses?
20 A There were numerous stereotypes referred to by the
21 students and that characterized their experiences. I made
22 a mention of an institutional problem of police harassment.
23 There was one stereotype that resulted in regular and
24 routine stop-and-identify challenges by police officers,
25 largely and sizably to black males, but also to black
141
1 females or to Chicano-Latino males, in some instances where
2 it was communicated in no uncertain terms that you couldn't
3 be a student here, so you must be on this campus illegally,
4 so you must justify to me why you are here on this campus,
5 and by contrast, their white peers did not have these kind
6 of experiences.
7 In the classroom -- so those are some of the
8 stereotyping. That's some of the stereotyping that
9 occurred in quote, unquote, social spaces or outside of
10 the classroom.
11 In the classroom proper, I have given you one
12 example of stereotyping where, when student peers exclude
13 a black student or a Chicano-Latino student from the study
14 group because of assumptions of innate inferiority or lack
15 of academic preparation, that is stereotyping by peers.
16 Similarly, there was stereotyping in some instances
17 by faculty. I used the example earlier today, the black
18 student who did extraordinarily well on a mathematics quiz
19 and then was challenged and accused of cheating and had
20 to attempt that same exam again and fortunately did much
21 better.
22 So stereotyping of the sort that linked up with this
23 long history in America of the negative perception of black
24 people generally and of blacks in terms of their educational
25 performance specifically was a recurring theme as the
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1 students talked about their experiences, and in the law
2 school context, some of that was also apparent in terms
3 of women and their experiences.
4 Q I want to ask you specifically about, I know there
5 were some focus groups that included Asian Pacific
6 Americans. Was there a hostile climate for that group
7 of students as well on the campuses you studied?
8 A Yes. Contrary to popular mythology, those students --
9 or contrary to what we would expect, because you have ideas
10 of Asians as a model minority and not having any kinds of
11 problems on these campuses, and indeed, sometimes they as a
12 minority group are pointed to as and held up as an example
13 for other minority students when, in fact, these students,
14 these Asian Pacific Islander students talked about instances
15 in many cases of extreme racial stereotyping, and the model
16 minority being one such racial stereotype, but additional
17 racial stereotyping of taking the form of overt racial slurs
18 in and around the campus and in some instances rising to the
19 point of physical threat, and as is the case with racism
20 and sexism, at times the racial and gender discrimination
21 overlapped and so some of the Asian Pacific Islander women
22 were confronted with racialized and sexualized stereotypes
23 where they were cast in very stereotypic fashions by student
24 peers and in some instances by things that faculty said to
25 them.
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1 So the interesting quality about these forms of
2 racial and sexual discrimination and on this campus is that
3 they are and continue to be a real element in this society.
4 Now, at the same time, the society has made some
5 gains and in fact was making tremendous progress and much
6 of that progress was being assisted by successful efforts
7 to increase the representation of different groups on the
8 campus, because it's harder to stereotype when you can
9 look around you and see six, eight examples of a person
10 from Chinese ancestry, because if you have any kind of
11 consciousness, you will see that those people are presenting
12 themselves differently, even though they have a shared
13 common belief. I mean, a common kind of presentation in
14 some elements.
15 The point is that if you look at the skin colorings,
16 you can look at the ethnic group and know that they are
17 Chinese, but the point is that you can see the individuals,
18 but you must have enough people around, a large number,
19 critical mass, so that you can get that kind of diversity
20 within the group.
21 And when you do achieve that, and we were achieving
22 it, it's beneficial for the educational experience of
23 everyone on the campus, not to mention the fact that it
24 prepares us all better to live together as a society that
25 is diverse.
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1 Q Did the stereotype of intellectual inferiority that
2 you were referring to earlier apply equally to all different
3 groups of minority students?
4 A Absolutely not. It attached much more strongly to
5 African Americans and more strongly to Chinese -- I mean,
6 to Chicano-Latino students compared to, say, Chinese
7 students or Japanese students or female students. And
8 that's again historically rooted in how this society has
9 constructed its views of African Americans.
10 But I can tell you one very refreshing comment from
11 one of the focus groups, a student was just talking about
12 the power of a class as an object lesson, and this class had
13 an African American professor and so the student was just
14 talking -- and this, by the way, was a Chicano-Latino
15 student -- just talking about how forcefully he was
16 influenced by that very bright African American man standing
17 up there teaching this class and how it was helpful for
18 him as a Chicano-Latino student as well as for the white
19 students and the other students in the room to understand
20 that African Americans are capable of such excellence given
21 a chance.
22 Q What impact did these dynamics have on the students,
23 what set of impacts?
24 A I had to pause, because they were influenced in a
25 variety of ways. The students talked about how experiences
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1 of kind of a negative racial climate and discrimination by
2 students and faculty, peers, student peers and faculty who
3 were white, these black students, these students of color
4 talked about how it negatively affected their academic
5 performance in a number of ways.
6 At times, it left them feeling angry, helpless,
7 frustrated. In other instances it inclined them to drop
8 majors that they had sort of aspired to since childhood.
9 They wanted to be doctors since as far back as they had
10 remembered, they had wanted to be attorneys, and then these
11 aspirations were sidetracked by a faculty person who would
12 communicate to them that he or she didn't think they were
13 appropriate material, or they were sidetracked by faculty
14 not managing the racial dynamics in the classroom in such a
15 way as to challenge and have everyone explore and discuss
16 negative racial characterization.
17 So these students, their aspirations were disrupted
18 in places. They had extreme sociopsychological distress
19 and in some instances their responses were simply to drop
20 classes, stop attending class, stop engaging in interactions
21 and discussions, to withdraw, if you will. So those were
22 some of the negative kinds of responses.
23 There were some positive responses, as well. Some
24 of the positive responses were that these students did go
25 ahead and construct a social world, if you will, that was
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1 absent for black students or for Chicano-Latino students or
2 for Asian Pacific Islander students on the campus. So they
3 spent time founding groups and making sure that their voices
4 were heard.
5 So a combination of those kinds of responses, but
6 disproportionately the responses were negative and with
7 negative consequences for their academic performance in
8 the year, in that moment, and also for their academic
9 aspirations. Self-esteem suffered. It was just -- the
10 list is long and spelled out here.
11 Q Tell us about the impact on academic aspirations.
12 A The impact on academic aspirations was such that, as I
13 said, students would enter school with a particular academic
14 goal, and because of their negative experiences with people
15 in the field, either their student peers or their faculty
16 members or their teaching assistants, and because of the
17 fact that they could not receive satisfaction, because many
18 of these students, I mean, these students would work very
19 hard to show that, and the students are not victims, I
20 mean, many of these students are not solely and completely
21 victims.
22 Many of these students, they come in, they are very
23 bright, energetic and determined, and so confronted with
24 racism and sexism they don't simply lie down, but the point
25 is that there is a cumulative effect such that over time
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1 many of them are beaten down and so they simply give up and
2 leave a major because they are just told by counselors and
3 advisors, for example, that this major is not for you. They
4 go into classrooms and faculty don't take them seriously as
5 students or communicate to them that they don't think they
6 are qualified and so it translates into those students
7 either dropping or changing their aspirations.
8 When you look at the other larger studies that I
9 have conducted, survey studies both on white campuses and
10 on black campuses, that aspiration link is really quite
11 interesting, because you'll find that black students on the
12 white campuses will express higher aspirations on average,
13 but their expectation within whatever field that they move
14 into is that they will not become eminent in the field;
15 that is, they presume, having learned their lessons from
16 participating in predominantly white schools, that they will
17 be only allowed to rise so far and not much higher than
18 that, whereas their peers at historically black schools
19 who have similar aspirations, also, believe that they are
20 capable of rising to the top of that field once they move
21 into the field, not only just becoming a lawyer, but
22 becoming one of the preeminent corporate attorneys --
23 excuse me -- one of the preeminent trial attorneys.
24 Q Thank you.
25 But on the historically black campuses, if I
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1 understood what you just said, the overall level of
2 aspiration was lower, let's say, category of aspiration
3 was lower, but within that students had more of a sense
4 that they could succeed?
5 A Exactly.
6 Q And would be treated equally?
7 A Exactly.
8 Q Did the minority students in the focus groups
9 express only negative things about their white peers and
10 counterparts?
11 A Actually, they did not, and that was one of the values
12 of -- that was a value of our survey data. We had a simple
13 item, but an item that's been tested and proven to be quite
14 effective, where you ask students, if you had to do it
15 over again would you chose this institution; and a related
16 question, how many times have you ever thought of dropping
17 out.
18 These students, to a person, the majority of them
19 overwhelmingly said that despite all the negatives and the
20 challenges, given the chance, they would chose to attend the
21 University of Michigan again, knowing what they know now.
22 And they then would go on in the focus groups
23 and talk about some of those positives, and some of those
24 positives were quite obvious. We know that when the
25 University of Michigan works as an educational experience,
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1 it works beautifully. It is a fantastic educational
2 experience. It prepares you quite well and it opens
3 doors and enters you into the competition for status in
4 the society at a very elevated level.
5 So the students talked about those very real
6 educational and occupational benefits that flowed, but they
7 also talked about, and this was another very clear finding
8 from the survey instrument and supported by the focus
9 groups, they talked about how much they had learned by
10 virtue of coming into contact with people from different
11 backgrounds and different races and ethnicities.
12 And that wasn't to say that there hadn't been
13 moments of tension, because, I mean, quite obviously you're
14 bringing people together of different points of view, so
15 there will be some tension, but there is growth that comes
16 out of that tension, and the students talked about that
17 growth and they talked about how they valued an opportunity
18 to meet and exchange with people who came from a different
19 world view, who were from a different race or ethnicity.
20 And as a sociological aside, there are just so
21 few, there's just so few places in a society where we
22 still have or will have opportunities for multicultural,
23 multiracial exchanges and they're really down to a couple.
24 I mean, we're talking about the workplace and we're talking
25 about schools, and it doesn't happen in the workplace if
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1 it's not happening in the schools, because you'll have a
2 segregated workplace if you're having segregation in the
3 schools.
4 Q Did the students and the -- had students expressed --
5 did all the students from all different races express
6 support for the diversity and the degree of integration
7 that had been achieved on the different campuses?
8 A Absolutely, and in fact, they were overwhelmingly in
9 support of a mechanism that had been used to achieve that
10 diversity, which was affirmative action.
11 Q In that regard, the -- you did some focus groups, you
12 told us, at the University of California at Berkley. Were
13 there differences in those focus groups compared to some of
14 the other ones that related to the question of the level of
15 diversity and integration on the campus?
16 A There were some key and important differences. One of
17 those had to do with just the issue of Proposition 209 and
18 the ban on affirmative action in the State of California,
19 and the students talked about how dramatically and how
20 negatively the campus had been influenced as a result of
21 such changes in their years there, talking about looking at,
22 for example, pictures of earlier years where there was just
23 an abundance of black people on the campus and then being
24 confronted with a situation in the present where blacks
25 were few and far between as a presence on the campus.
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1 Similarly, the Asian Pacific Islander students, the
2 Chicano-Latino students, the black students talked about,
3 and indeed some of the white students talked about, how
4 that in some ways affirmative action had -- was being used
5 as, I'll use my terminology, a stalking horse; that is,
6 used as a basis for trying to validate racial stereotypes;
7 that is, by saying that if you see a black student or a
8 Chicano-Latino, then that student is unqualified, because,
9 quote, unquote, that student is an affirmative action
10 student.
11 So you got different dynamics across the campuses,
12 but the campuses were consistent. The students were
13 consistent across those campuses in terms of their comments
14 about the positives that accrued to them as people and that
15 accrued to them in terms of their educations by virtue of
16 being in an environment, in a setting, where they could
17 interact with students from different races, different
18 cultures, different backgrounds.
19 Q You reached the conclusion that, and I'm reading
20 from page 57, that academic performance is negatively
21 affected by the cumulative macro and micro forms of racial
22 discrimination. Students of color appear to be burdened by
23 more stress than white students. While all students must
24 focus on their studies and some also work to pay for their
25 education, students of color have an additional full-time
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1 job of dealing with racial and gender assaults. This is
2 an extra burden that most white students do not face.
3 A Correct.
4 Q And that finding was based on the focus group
5 transcripts and the analysis that you conducted of those?
6 A Yes, yes. And the students who walked us through
7 and talked about the kinds of discrimination that they
8 experienced, and from there talked in specifics about its
9 consequences for their experience on the campus generally,
10 their educational outcomes, their social experiences.
11 Now, for me in terms of the sociological research
12 record that I have been trying to build, this was important
13 confirmatory information, because my earlier work done
14 on the national level, using surveys at the University of
15 Michigan and elsewhere, had proven that there was this
16 correlation, if you will, say between academic performance
17 and race, but in many respects that's just the beginning of
18 the question, because the next question is, then, why are
19 we getting this correlation.
20 And this is information that's of a richer, more
21 detailed sort about their day-to-day experiences and lives
22 on the campuses, and that question and the why came in
23 the form of professors that were less helpful, that were
24 stand-offish, or that didn't trust or value a student's
25 educational potential or educational performance.
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1 The why came in a series of challenges to the
2 student's validity and it sounds -- I mean, when you try
3 to document racism or sexism or any form of discrimination,
4 and I don't know that I'm necessarily saying anything new
5 to those of you who are attorneys contesting these kinds
6 of cases, often it sounds very minor or even silly or
7 thin-skinned when you say, well, the white student before
8 me, the three or four white students before me came up,
9 made their request, and it was met immediately, no questions
10 asked. I come to the desk, I make the question, I get
11 carded. I have to show my ID, I have to report my -- I
12 have to state my Social Security Number.
13 So the point is that it's a very subtle, but a very
14 powerful communication to that female who reported such
15 an incident that she is not to be trusted, she is in a
16 different category, she is in a lesser category than the
17 white students who passed before her.
18 Or the black male who leaves -- this was a
19 Chicano-Latino male who leaves the library, long line of
20 students in front of him, book bags received just a cursory
21 glance, and they are shepherded on through. He arrives at
22 the check point and the entire bag is unloaded, as if he
23 is not to be trusted, as if he is going to be up to some
24 nefarious act.
25 And so those are, again, what I referred to earlier
154
1 as micro assaults, micro aggressions that are racialized,
2 racialized encounters of a sort that are in the form of
3 insults, in the form of challenges to legitimacy, that have
4 a cumulative effect on a student and basically does wear
5 them down, because they are talked about how drained they
6 would feel at the end of a day of confronting that kind of
7 process, and how for many of them it was so hard to get up
8 and go out the next day, but of course, they had to go out
9 the next day, because if they didn't go out the next day,
10 then as far as the system is concerned, you're skipping
11 class, and of course, you're missing content that day.
12 Q And even if you do go to the class, what is the
13 impact?
14 A The impact is often that you're in the class, but
15 you're not participating fully. I think that we heard
16 eloquent reports and very heart-wrenching reports of that
17 very fact from Ms. Escobar, from Ms. James, how you can be
18 in a class, but if you're not in a certain state of mind,
19 if you have been so disrupted that you can't concentrate
20 on what is happening in the class, you have been so
21 psychologically disturbed that you can't engage your
22 material fully or for that matter even if you have worked
23 through that psychological distress, but the interactions
24 are such that you don't feel yourself pulled into full
25 participation in the class, your questions are not engaged,
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1 you're not engaged as a student, and given an opportunity
2 to demonstrate your worth and your perspectives, you simply
3 are excluded from study groups, together those elements
4 detract from your educational experience.
5 And I'm talking about the more covert and subtle
6 forms of discrimination, but we should make no mistake about
7 it, as is true in the society at large, on the campuses, on
8 the University of Michigan campus, on those feeder campuses
9 to the law school, in the undergraduate college at the
10 University of Michigan, across the board, across these
11 campuses, students also report instances of much more overt
12 discrimination that's not only upsetting, but in some points
13 carries the threat of personal injury, being physically
14 accosted or being physically threatened and certainly being
15 verbally assaulted by, I mean, just countless examples of
16 the students reporting slurs being hurled at them of the
17 worst sort, hurled at them as API's, as Asian Pacific
18 Islanders, hurled at them as Chicano-Latinos, hurled at
19 them as African Americans, and so you put all of this
20 together where you are facing discrimination that is
21 informal, and you are also facing discrimination from the
22 formal agents on the campus, and it is really quite a burden
23 for students to bear.
24 And in just taking us back to this whole idea of a
25 level playing field, it's not a level playing field, because
156
1 you have the same track for the students, this is true, but
2 given the kind of burden that I have just described, one
3 of the students has to run that 440, one group has to run
4 that 440 carrying a burden of a 500-pound stone, and the
5 other student is running or the other group of students
6 are running unfettered, and that's just simply not a fair
7 race. It's not a fair race. They are running, true, on
8 the same track, but they are not running under the same
9 circumstances.
10 Q Were the white students with whom you spoke in focus
11 groups conscious of the unevenness of the playing field?
12 A You know, initially in some of the discussions, not
13 necessarily so, but it was actually quite interesting to
14 see the process whereby some of the students in that group,
15 we had a few focus groups that were all white students, and
16 purposely so, where a student, for example, would deny white
17 privilege and deny advantages accruing to himself because
18 of his whiteness and being at the University of Michigan,
19 and then being challenged by other white students in that
20 focus group and the rich discussion that ensued, and that
21 concluded that, yes, there were advantages to being white,
22 and that, yes, there were entitlements that came by virtue
23 of that fact, and by virtue of the other fact that one was
24 white in an institution that was Eurocentric, that was
25 white-focused, that had a construction, had values and
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1 institutional arrangements that privileged white students.
2 Q For all of the students, how important --
3 A Excuse me. Should I give you an example --
4 Q Please, please.
5 A -- of white entitlement?
6 It was very striking to see the difference,
7 for example, in policing of student parties, and this
8 particular entitlement may be as much a white male
9 entitlement as a white entitlement, where students, for
10 example, females talked about female protests, female
11 activities, like the Take Back the Night March, that
12 inevitably, like clockwork, when it wound past the
13 fraternity houses, males in those houses, white males
14 in those houses engaged in derogatory acts and in some
15 instances exposing themselves, often hurling insults and
16 slurs and name calling.
17 And now, mind you, these marches were escorted by
18 campus police, but to this day, as best I can understand,
19 no one has been arrested for those acts of public exposure,
20 for those attacks on people who were exercising their rights
21 to demonstrate.
22 Similarly, in terms of parties, Asian Pacific
23 Islander students talked about how closely their parties
24 were surveilled and monitored by police when just down the
25 street white fraternities were having parties that we will
158
1 mildly characterize as wild, spilling out into the street,
2 blocking traffic, public drunkenness, underage drinking,
3 but the police did not enforce laws in those settings.
4 Or instances where black students had parties in
5 the Union and they were funneled off the side door, I mean,
6 physically required to exit not through the front, but
7 through the side door, and this is contrasted with parties
8 by white -- sponsored by white organizations where the
9 front door was an acceptable point of entry and exit.
10 And, of course, there were also differences in just
11 the number of police that were required in order to secure
12 University approval for the function.
13 Q And what did those practices communicate, both to the
14 minority and to the white students?
15 A They communicated in no uncertain terms that the
16 campus belonged to white students, that the campus was made
17 for white students, that it was set up for their pleasure
18 and their benefit and that the students of color were there
19 not as full members of that community, but as outsiders.
20 Q I'm going to take you to another one of your findings,
21 Professor Allen, which I think summarizes some of what you
22 have been saying, but I want to give you the opportunity to
23 develop it and add to it, if you would like to. I'm reading
24 from page 58.
25 A student's academic performance -- it's the second
159
1 bullet point for people that are following along.
2 A student's academic performance as measured by
3 grades should be seen within the context of macro and
4 micro forms of racism; that is, while grades measure to
5 some degree a student's hard work, creativity, talent and
6 determination, for students of color this occurs within a
7 context of overcoming tremendous odds, racial affronts and
8 racial burdens.
9 A The point is, it's quite straightforward, that grades
10 have to be evaluated within the context of the experience
11 of the groups that have those grades, and so the long and
12 short of it is that given the kinds of burdens that I have
13 described, given the kinds of barriers and negative racial
14 experiences, for example, that the students reported, that
15 a Chicano-Latino who earns a B plus under all of that kind
16 of stress and under all of that kind of racial harassment,
17 sexual harassment, discrimination, it's not sufficient to
18 simply say it's the same B plus that her white male peers
19 earned on that campus, because his circumstances and his
20 experiences were decidedly different.
21 And I can't talk necessarily about the K through
22 twelve years, but on that campus they were decidedly
23 different, because on that campus he had a personhood, he
24 had a validity, he had access to resources and opportunities
25 that that Chicano-Latino simply did not have.
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1 And so the point is to understand that the grades
2 must be contextualized, and that as much as we would like
3 to think about grades as objective and unsoiled indicators,
4 or similarly to think about tests that way, in fact, those
5 indicators often simply convey no more than cumulative
6 histories of either advantage or disadvantage.
7 Q In your opinion, what's the solution to the problems
8 faced by minority students on college campuses that are
9 largely white in general, but speaking specifically of the
10 feeder campuses to the University of Michigan law school,
11 which were the principal focus of your research here?
12 A I think we as a society had been on the pathway to
13 such a solution and that was to increase the representation
14 and the diversity of those campuses, I mean, because to the
15 extent that you can increase the numbers of students of
16 color on those campuses, increase that critical mass,
17 increase the representation in the faculties of those
18 institutions of faculty of color, then you improve the
19 educational experience for everyone on the campus, and
20 particularly on -- for those students of color on the
21 campus.
22 And I can talk a little bit about the specifics
23 of the premise, if you will allow me.
24 Q Yes.
25 A The fact of the matter is that, as I said, there are
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1 overt instances of discrimination on campus, but they are
2 rare, they really are rare. They are very real, but they
3 are rare.
4 It's more often the covert instances of
5 discrimination, and in some instances that kind of
6 covert racial discrimination owes to nothing other than
7 just lack of familiarity with a particular group or
8 just ignorance of that group and that kind of lack of
9 familiarity, that unconscious expression of racial
10 discrimination.
11 That ignorance is addressed most effectively by
12 having a diverse group of people around who can engage a
13 professor, and one of his colleagues can engage him, around
14 his inappropriate racial assumptions or his inappropriate
15 racial comments, his inappropriate gender comments or sexual
16 comments.
17 The point is that we're most educated by our peers,
18 and similarly the students around one another can help to
19 educate each other and help to change the -- not only the
20 complexion, but also the character of interactions on the
21 campus. So I think it's a matter of trying to do more of
22 what we have been doing.
23 See, that's the irony that the affirmative action
24 movement, from my purposes, just as the success of the
25 program is building and we're really starting to see
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1 reflected in the various occupations in society, in the
2 various institutions, the diversity of a sort that reflects
3 this country, there is a move afoot to hamper or discontinue
4 one of the key mechanisms for ensuring that we continue to
5 make progress on that front.
6 So those are some of the reflections I have about
7 what we can do. I think that we can recommit to making
8 sure that these schools continue to be racially diverse
9 and resist any efforts to turn the clock back, and then
10 secondly, bring the kinds of resources to bear that will,
11 in the long run, benefit the institutions and benefit the
12 larger society, because absent those kinds of responses
13 we're really wasting precious human resources in this
14 society by deciding from the day that a certain person
15 is born that she is destined to the lower regions of the
16 society or destined to the societal -- society's junk heap
17 without first getting a feel for this young lady's potential
18 and allowing her to develop it to a maximum extent. To the
19 extent she develops it to a maximum extent, then society
20 benefits.
21 Q Professor Allen, speaking still and taking you back
22 some to the undergrad focus groups and the conclusions you
23 reached there, do you conclude that having more black and
24 Latino students on the campuses you studied would improve
25 the average GPA of minority students?
163
1 A No doubt.
2 Q Why is that?
3 A Well, what we have seen from research, my own as well
4 as the research of others, and the Bok-Bowen is a good kind
5 of example that I think is known to most people, students,
6 black students, Chicano-Latino students do better in schools
7 that are better resourced, and for that matter, all
8 students.
9 I mean, retention rates are better at Harvard than
10 they are at lesser institutions, and for those who would
11 say, well, that's simply because Harvard has a different
12 product, the fact of the matter is that Harvard has a curve
13 just like everywhere else has a curve. So if it's a matter
14 of the competition working itself out so that the better
15 students excel and move forward and the others drop by the
16 wayside, then you would not have those high, high retention
17 rates that you have in a place like Harvard, because the
18 point is that there are some who are better at Harvard and
19 there are some who are not as good.
20 So the point, though, is that another one of the
21 resources of Harvard, the assumptions that they make, and
22 just this whole philosophy that we don't make mistakes, if
23 we bring you in here, you're good enough to graduate and
24 you will excel, and that's a different institutional
25 orientation than at some places where the notion is one
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1 of, well, to be truly prestigious academically we have
2 to have a high body count, that is, our prestige is
3 predicated upon the number of students we flunk out, and
4 not the number that we graduate.
5 So I'm just simply saying that resources and
6 institutional orientation make a difference and when black
7 students and excluded students find their way to a Michigan
8 or have the good fortune to find their way to some of
9 those feeder institutions or to the feeder undergraduate
10 institutions of the law school, it produces excellent
11 outcomes for those students, because those students learn
12 more, as I talked about earlier, they have a better
13 resourced environment, the professors are more talented,
14 their academic physical resources are richer, and it
15 translates into higher levels of academic performance,
16 and more specifically what you see is improved rates of
17 retention, which are tied to higher GPA's.
18 Q And on any --
19 A And by virtue of going through those schools that they
20 have been excluded from.
21 Q And on any particular campus, whether it's an MSU or a
22 Harvard or any campus, what's the relationship between the
23 number of minority students, the level of integration, and
24 the GPA's, the aggregate GPA's of those students, in your
25 view?
165
1 A In my view, the students do better when they have a
2 more sizable community.
3 Q And why is that?
4 A For all of the reasons of sociopsychological comfort
5 that I have talked about, social support systems, but also
6 for reasons of just changing the character of stereotypical
7 perceptions on the campus; that is, changing those
8 perceptions in such a way that people come to allow for
9 and to expect academic excellence from a Latino student,
10 academic excellence from a black student, but you have to
11 have an experience with those students and you must have
12 those students represented on the campus in sizable enough
13 number so that across the very disciplinary areas you have
14 critical masses of those students, those students are
15 performing, and those students are helping to provide the
16 dynamic for this institutional change that is necessary to
17 change those stereotypic views and to produce different
18 educational and academic outcomes for black students, for
19 Chicano-Latino students and so on.
20 Q And as a matter of recent history, the history of the
21 last couple of decades, have there been changes in national
22 aggregate data that either support or refute your views
23 about increasing the level of diversity and integration
24 and its correlates as regards GPA?
25 A I think there has been extensive evidence, and the
166
1 one book I mentioned, it lists in its bibliography many of
2 the other sources, and in my own work I have sources, as
3 well, past the Bok and Bowen study, The Shape of the River.
4 Q And can you just summarize what the nature of the
5 relationship is between the level of representation of black
6 and Latino and other minority communities and the academic
7 performance of those groups in the aggregate again?
8 A Okay. In the aggregate, the relationship is a very
9 simple one. If you have a larger presence of those students
10 on the campus, the students do better academically, they do
11 better in terms of their levels of social adjustment on the
12 campus, and indeed, the campus changes in positive ways
13 in terms of racial climate and interpersonal racial
14 relationships.
15 Q Let me turn your attention to the law school focus
16 groups that were carried out as part of the study, turning
17 away now from the undergraduate feeder campus focus groups.
18 In broad terms, were the conclusions you reached
19 based on the law school focus groups similar or different
20 in terms of what you found about campus racial climate?
21 A They were similar.
22 Q Were there differences that you would like to tell us
23 about?
24 A There actually were some important differences, so
25 you had similarity in terms of the finding, for example, of
167
1 white entitlement, male entitlement, male privilege, white
2 privilege. You had similarity, as well, in terms of this
3 link between a climate that's racially hostile and negative
4 academic outcomes for students of color, but the findings
5 were complicated in the sense that when you looked, for
6 example, at Asian Pacific Islander students in the law
7 school context, you found more instances, for example,
8 of those students talking about experiences with racial
9 stereotyping, with racial harassment.
10 Similarly, in terms of women and their experiences,
11 there was more discussion of sexual stereotyping and sexual
12 harassment in the law school context, in a very interesting
13 kind of way. You found that there was kind of a hyper white
14 and male kind of dominant structure in the law school.
15 Q What do you mean?
16 A Just simply not --
17 Q Not that I don't know, by the way.
18 A And I was searching for gentle words.
19 Simply saying that the environment by virtue of
20 its history, its educational approaches, exacerbated many
21 of the findings of kind of white male privileging as regards
22 the -- there was something about the educational process
23 in that setting, there was something about the preparation
24 that in many respects by the reports of the people from the
25 focus groups that we talked to let males, and white males,
168
1 particularly, in an especially dominant and privileged
2 position, and in a situation and in a kind of status where
3 they felt empowered, if you will, to express that dominance
4 in terms of their interactions both in the classroom as well
5 as in the social spaces of the school of law.
6 Q In your view, is the number of black and Latino
7 students at the University of Michigan Law School adequate
8 to dispel the negative dynamics that you have talked about
9 today?
10 A In my view, no, and in the view of -- in the views of
11 the people in the focus groups across the board, by the way,
12 irrespective of race, no, absolutely not.
13 Q And in the case of this law school, law school
14 generally in all likelihood, but this law school in
15 particular, in your opinion, would the enrollment of greater
16 numbers of minority students help reduce the effects of
17 discrimination and bias and racism that you have talked
18 about today?
19 A I think so, yes, and I think that the history of the
20 school proves that point.
21 Q By the way, can you -- I want to turn your attention
22 to the Grace Carroll supplement now.
23 Is it possible to have a terrible experience in law
24 school and still go on to have a good experience as a lawyer
25 and do interesting things?
169
1 A I think absolutely so. I think that shows in the
2 Carroll study which I commissioned and directed. I mean,
3 I basically laid out the parameters for her conducting and
4 completing that research. What we saw is that these were
5 some incredible success stories, success stories of people
6 who would not have become attorneys but for affirmative
7 action, and who indeed talked about some negative aspects
8 of their experience at law school, at the University of
9 Michigan Law School, but who then went on to excel in their
10 professional careers, and who in keeping with findings from
11 studies such as Bok and Bowen, and keeping with findings
12 of studies such as the work of Rick Lempert, went on to
13 disproportionately be engaged in public interest related
14 work, if you will, work that was dedicated to uplifting
15 their communities and to addressing social problems.
16 Q I want to ask you some questions about the possibility
17 of bias in focus group research. Are you confident in the
18 results that you achieved in your study?
19 A Very much so.
20 Q What is it that makes you confident that the samples
21 weren't biased?
22 A The thing to understand and remember is that there was
23 a two-stage process in the selection of the students for the
24 focus groups, and so we used, first of all, a variety of
25 ways to recruit students, e-mails, campus signups, and
170
1 recruitment of students within classes, but this was to
2 recruit the pool of students from which we then assembled
3 our focus groups.
4 Now, our sample was a purposive sample, it wasn't
5 a random sample, but it was purposive, but there was some
6 random selection within that purposive selection, and
7 particularly what we were intent on doing is filling out
8 the sail, so we needed, for example, membership sufficient
9 for the white focus group or we needed the sample from
10 the -- to sample enough students to fill out the Asian
11 Pacific Islander focus group.
12 So I don't -- I'm very confident that the study
13 results weren't biased both for reasons of how we selected
14 focus group participants, but equally, if not even more so
15 important, was the fact that those focus groups were run
16 by experienced professionals who were quite competent
17 and effective in their performance of the role as group
18 facilitator and so did not allow for any circumstances
19 where you were receiving a biased response.
20 And then, of course, the final check is to simply
21 look at the transcripts and that's why it's so important to
22 produce verbatim transcripts. If there is bias, it shows in
23 the verbatim transcripts, and if one looks at those verbatim
24 transcripts one does not see any systematic bias. So I'm
25 very confident.
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1 I might also add that there is not, beyond the
2 simple fact that many of our findings confirm research
3 findings from a variety of other data sources.
4 MS. MASSIE: Judge, actually, if we could take a
5 real five-minute break here, that would be great.
6 THE COURT: Of course. We will take five minutes.
7 And I don't know what Professor Allen's schedule is
8 like, but if you wanted to work into the evening so he can
9 get -- if he has got a plane or something I would be more
10 than happy to accommodate the schedule tonight.
11 THE WITNESS: Your pleasure, Your Honor. Whatever
12 your preference.
13 THE COURT: Oh, sure, there is a class that's hoping
14 you don't show tomorrow.
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
16 THE COURT: But really, we will accommodate your
17 schedule.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
19 (Recess taken at 3:54 p.m.)
20 (Back on the record at 4:12 p.m.)
21 THE COURT: You may be seated. Thank you.
22 MS. MASSIE: We conferred a bit over the break and
23 it sounds like I don't have that much more for Professor
24 Allen, and it sounds like it would be better for Counsel
25 if we then broke for the day.
172
1 THE COURT: That's fine. I just wanted to
2 accommodate everybody's schedule and I have no problems
3 with that.
4 Which reminds me, we're probably going to have to
5 break on Friday about no later than 4:00.
6 MS. MASSIE: Okay.
7 THE COURT: If that's okay with everybody.
8 MS. MASSIE: No problem.
9 BY MS. MASSIE:
10 Q We were talking about the recruitment process, the
11 process for getting participants in the focus groups before
12 the break, and you mentioned some e-mails that had been used
13 for recruitment?
14 A Yes.
15 Q I would like to ask you to turn to Tabs 176 and 177,
16 and for everybody that's trying to find where they are,
17 they are in the small volume, supplemental volume.
18 A Yes, I have them.
19 Q And if you could just confirm for us that those are
20 the e-mails that were used for recruitment purposes for the
21 study, I'm not going to dwell on them for a long time, but I
22 think they should be part of the record, so I would like to
23 move them into evidence.
24 A Okay. Just a second, please. Yes, these were used
25 for recruitment purposes.
173
1 Q I think you will find that the Berkley one is not
2 there. Was it substantially similar?
3 A I basically used -- the answer is yes, the format was
4 the same.
5 MS. MASSIE: Judge, I would like to move everything
6 in Tabs 176 and 177 into evidence. 177 consist of either
7 three or four separate e-mails and since they were used for
8 recruiting participants in the focus groups, I think it's
9 appropriate they be part of the record.
10 THE COURT: Any objection?
11 MR. KOLBO: We have no objection.
12 THE COURT: Received.
13 BY MS. MASSIE:
14 Q Did you place any restrictions on students who could
15 participate in the focus groups?
16 A Yes, I did. To avoid problems of bias, any students
17 who were listed in the action, Intervenors or who were on
18 the witness list, were excluded from participation in focus
19 groups.
20 Q And again, having read the transcripts, based on your
21 experience, based on the quantitative studies that have been
22 done up to this point and the other factors you mentioned,
23 you're confident that these are very solid results?
24 A Very much so.
25 Q I'm going to ask you now to summarize for us the
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1 findings that you made here and their implications.
2 A Okay.
3 Q Let me start off by just asking you a very broad
4 question, just, have we made any progress on this front,
5 this front of race and higher education, the status of
6 minorities in higher education?
7 A I think we have made progress. I say, I'll use the
8 term "it's substantial" advisedly, because there is such a
9 long road and way yet to be traveled, but relative to where
10 we were, say, 40, 45 years ago, we have made substantial
11 progress, but the gains have been hard achieved and are in
12 some respects very delicately balanced, so still have a ways
13 to go, and the achievements that we have made are fragile in
14 some respects.
15 Q Fragile in what respect?
16 A In the respect, I'll use the example of the UC system.
17 The University of California system had made considerable
18 progress in diversification, that is, incorporating students
19 of different races and ethnicities up to 1995 when the
20 UC Regents passed the SP1, SP1 and SP2 restrictions on
21 affirmative action, followed by Prop 209.
22 Well, when those rules were implemented in the
23 very first year, what we saw was a 40 percent decline in
24 Chicano-Latino enrollment in the University of California
25 system and a 50 percent decline in the African American
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1 enrollment.
2 And just to give you a sense of how stark those
3 numbers are, at the University of California-Los Angeles,
4 for instance, in the last year's entering class, out of
5 4,000 students, mind you, there were only 25 black males
6 who weren't scholarship athletes, so -- and this is
7 contrasted with pre '95 where those numbers were
8 approaching eight times that, so thus the notion of a
9 fragile gain.
10 Q Because the gain can be attacked?
11 A Precisely. And overnight, can be erased.
12 Q In your opinion, can we continue to move forward,
13 can we build on the gains that we have made?
14 A I think absolutely, yes.
15 Q How do we do that?
16 A I think we do it by staying the course, by continuing
17 to do the things that we had been doing to change the
18 pattern of participation in higher education, to increase
19 rates of participation from under-represented or
20 non-existent groups like Chicano-Latino students and
21 African American students and what have you.
22 Q And in your opinion, would continuing to take measures
23 that increase the representation of under-represented
24 minority groups improve the academic outcomes and
25 performance of members of those groups?
176
1 A I would say definitely, yes.
2 MS. MASSIE: Thank you. I have nothing else.
3 THE COURT: It was your agreement that we break
4 now, is that it, or do you want to continue?
5 Let's continue. It's up to you, really. Is it
6 okay with you, Mr. Payton?
7 MR. PAYTON: I'm the one that has to actually leave
8 here by 5:00, but I can continue.
9 THE COURT: If you would like to break now, you tell
10 me when you want to break. If you want to do it now, if you
11 want to do it -- whatever you would like to do, perfectly
12 fine.
13 MR. PAYTON: Let's go.
14 THE COURT: And I'm not sure how far you have to go
15 or whatever you have, but you can tell me and if I don't
16 hear from you before, right at 5:00 we will break, how's
17 that?
18 CROSS EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. PAYTON:
20 Q Good afternoon, Professor Allen.
21 A Good afternoon, Attorney Payton.
22 Q I want to ask you some questions that I intend to
23 be broader, and broader with respect to your expertise in
24 sociology and education and race, so you could look at sort
25 of where we are and what these issues are really all about
177
1 in context.
2 So let me ask you about the continuing salience
3 of race in our society today. What's the significance
4 of race today; is it less, more, the same, what is it?
5 A Race continues to be powerfully significant in
6 our society. At the same time, the ways in which it is
7 significant and salient have shifted or changed to some
8 degree, and I'll elaborate.
9 Race continues to matter for African Americans,
10 but at the same time, the sort of status of the African
11 American population has changed in some important ways,
12 so for example, you have a more sizable black middle class
13 than you did, say, 35, 40 years ago, but race continues to
14 matter in the lives of that black middle class in ways
15 large and small.
16 So the research shows us that race matters for
17 blacks of status in terms of encounters with police, police
18 profiling, for example, in terms of relative wealth compared
19 to whites who are also middle class, so I'm simply saying
20 that race still matters, but it's become complicated by
21 some of the changes in society.
22 Q Let me ask you about a term you used. You -- I'm
23 going to fumble it a little bit, but you talked about
24 micro aspects, micro assaults?
25 A Micro aggressions, yes.
178
1 Q Micro aggressions?
2 A Yes.
3 Q So racially motivated micro aggressions?
4 A Yes, sir, that's correct.
5 Q Give us the -- I'm going to quibble with the term,
6 micro, because it sounds like it belittles the impact of
7 race in those encounters. Are micro assaults insignificant?
8 A Not at all. And that's exactly the argument we make
9 in terms of the cumulative effect of micro aggression.
10 Now, the micro simply refers to the form of
11 the racial aggression, not its impact, and not how it
12 influences the person who is the target of it, and it's
13 to differentiate from major racial assaults, some of which
14 are physical, and certainly all of which are much more
15 overt.
16 So this is a covert form of racial aggression, but
17 when we use the term, micro aggression, we're simply trying
18 to make clear that these are in the form of, for example,
19 insults and throw-aside remarks that are seemingly
20 insignificant, but that in fact have a very powerful
21 cumulative effect, so thus the notion of micro.
22 Q I guess I want to say it another way.
23 Is it micro to -- let's just take the African
24 American. Is it micro to the African American who is
25 the recipient of the assault or is it micro to the white
179
1 observer of the incident? I don't understand the word,
2 micro.
3 A I'll try to be responsive, because I resonate with
4 the question. It's actually micro to both, but not the
5 same, to the same degree.
6 Essentially, what we are talking about is incidents
7 or events that are, as I said, seemingly insignificant or
8 simple or very small offenses in the relative scheme of
9 things. In other words, some observers have talked about
10 a new racism versus an old racism, and so the old racism
11 would be quite overt and be presented in the form of major
12 aggressions, either physical or certainly in terms of
13 utterances and slurs that could not be misinterpreted.
14 The new racism is a little more genteel and covert
15 and so rather than the most blatant utterances, using
16 language and interactions in a way that were slight or were
17 small insults, but at the end of the day the cumulative
18 effect of twenty slights or twenty micro aggressions equaled
19 to the effect and force of a major racial insult.
20 So it's more a sort of technical term used by social
21 scientists and actually borrowed from the work of a famous
22 black psychiatrist at Harvard, Chester Pierce, but certainly
23 did not want to leave the notion of micro as meaning just
24 small and meaningless, but rather, micro referring to the
25 size of the insult, if you will, but the racial intent is
180
1 very clear and it's very powerful in its negative influence.
2 Q Now, you spoke in your testimony of some number of
3 these incidents actually being the result of ignorance.
4 Is that -- are most of them the result of ignorance?
5 A I would say many. I don't know necessarily that most,
6 but a sizable percentage would be the result of ignorance.
7 I mean, comments in the class that the focus groups would
8 reveal, a young lady quit innocently, honestly saying, but
9 in a very negative -- having a negative, powerful impact on
10 the person of color hearing it, oh, you know, she had seen
11 information in the class that talked about a white gang,
12 and her response was, and I'm saying again, a very innocent
13 response, oh, I thought gangs were only with black people,
14 that they only had black gangs, and so for her, it's --
15 you give her the benefit of the doubt and that it was an
16 innocent remark, but it is a micro aggression, a racial
17 insult that has a cumulative effect.
18 Q Actually, take that example. That example could have
19 a devastating effect on some of the minority students who
20 were present to hear it, isn't that right?
21 A This is very true.
22 Q It could undermine their own self-concept, their
23 willingness to participate?
24 A Particularly if it was at the end of a day of such
25 small comments and such small insults.
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1 Let's take one that's less charged. The African
2 American male on campus who is presumed to be an athlete
3 before he opens his mouth, and even in cases where they
4 don't necessarily have the physique of an athlete, you
5 know, you maybe make allowances if I'm a guy who weighs
6 350 pounds, and maybe then it's not a certain jump, but
7 maybe, but for an African American male who time and time
8 again, the first comment is, what sport do you play, it's --
9 and when you think about the person asking the question,
10 what that person is doing is operating out of a set of
11 normative assumptions that presume that African American
12 males would be athletes if they are on that campus, but for
13 the male who is hearing it, it doesn't obviously -- it
14 obviously doesn't have quite the force of a flat-out slur,
15 but over time you get tired of hearing it and over time it
16 begins to take its toll.
17 Q Now, in response to, I think, my first or second
18 question you talked about the increasing numbers of African
19 Americans that are middle class and how race may still
20 affect them. Let me talk about other economic groups, say
21 poor people, poor white people, poor African Americans,
22 living in similar circumstances. Does race nevertheless
23 affect those poor African Americans so that their lives
24 are different from the poor white men?
25 A Absolutely.
182
1 Q How is that?
2 A The poor whites are still entitled and privileged
3 just by virtue of whiteness. As a group of researchers who
4 talk about the wages of whiteness, literally, whiteness
5 brings its own privilege in this society, because you have
6 access that people of color don't have, you have certain
7 rights and privileges that people of color don't have, so
8 even though you may be in the same economic circumstance,
9 and even that is open to debate because research shows that
10 class doesn't mean the same thing across race, I mean, but
11 the point is that controlling for the assumption of class,
12 whiteness is a resource in a society that values whiteness,
13 that rewards whiteness, and that creates opportunities for
14 whiteness that are not available for those of color.
15 Q Let me go to the other end. Very high income white
16 Americans, very high income Hispanic Americans, very high
17 income African Americans, does race -- is there an income
18 level where, take an African American, they are insulated
19 from the effect of race in our society?
20 A Absolutely not. Obviously, income and economic
21 standing makes a difference, and especially in our society,
22 but for wealthy African Americans compared to wealthy
23 whites, the advantage still goes to wealthy whites.
24 Research such as Melvin Oliver and Shapiro, a study
25 of relative race wealth shows, for example, that African
183
1 Americans at the same income level as whites are still
2 more insecure economically; that is, their earnings are
3 the source of their economic standing more so than family
4 accumulated wealth, so they have less wealth than does
5 their white counterpart and wealth in the form of
6 accumulated assets like the home, like stocks and bonds,
7 and so on, and this is just a function of the historical
8 difference in terms of the two racial groups and blacks
9 being systematically undeveloped economically in this
10 society by virtue of 300 years of slavery, followed by
11 100 years of Jim Crow, and following on the heels of
12 that continuing discrimination.
13 Q Now, you mentioned that there are two basic, I would
14 say, institutions, parts of our society, where it's possible
15 to have a lot of interracial relationships, work, you said,
16 and higher education, college, and I take it the reason
17 those two are there is because we're segregated most of
18 the other places; is that right?
19 A Absolutely, absolutely true.
20 Q Okay.
21 A We're segregated residentially as a society.
22 Q So let's focus on college. When you talked about
23 what happens at predominantly white colleges or the feeder
24 schools that you did your focus groups with, and you talked
25 about the fact that in spite of the negatives almost all of
184
1 your minority responses still found sufficient positives
2 that they would go there again; is that right?
3 A Yes, absolutely.
4 Q Were you surprised by that?
5 A Not really, mainly because I have taught on these
6 campuses and I have in my own personal experience that kind
7 of an experience. I basically was raised in Kansas City,
8 Missouri in the time when the city was segregated and so all
9 of my experience through high school was in segregated high
10 schools, and I made a conscious decision that I needed to
11 spend some time in a predominantly white setting, and plus
12 the opportunities were there, so I went from that literally
13 all-black environment to what was essentially an all-white
14 environment in southern Wisconsin at a very small school
15 there and just the benefits that accrued to me educationally
16 and in terms of growing as a person, along with, of course,
17 the struggles and the strains and the stresses.
18 So from a personal point of view, I wasn't
19 surprised, nor was I surprised from the point of view of
20 prior research that I had done where, like a drum beat, and
21 consistently students of color, after talking about and
22 sharing their pain and the struggle, said that on balance it
23 was a valuable opportunity, it was an opportunity they had
24 to take advantage of, and, you know, given the opportunity,
25 they would accept it again, even with a knowledge and
185
1 understanding of the kinds of strains and challenges that
2 would be there.
3 Q I want to stand back just a little bit from that,
4 because I think you also said that it turned out to be a
5 benefit for all of the students at those colleges and
6 universities where there was that diversity, that everyone
7 benefitted. Did that help deal with some of the ignorance
8 that was the cause of some of the incidents?
9 A Absolutely so. And the benefit flowing from such
10 diversity is maximized to the extent that the numbers of
11 students of color on the campus are increased, because
12 that's a heavy burden.
13 That's another job for those students, by the way.
14 As one student talked about it at Harvard, she is an
15 ambassador, so in addition to her regular business of
16 school, she had to educate people about what it means to
17 be an African American and to answer questions and to be an
18 ambassador.
19 And so to the extent that that burden is shared more
20 broadly, that is, you have more students of color, then it
21 becomes beneficial for both groups. It's a problem if
22 it's a situation where you have tokenism and so you just
23 have a few students of color carrying that heavy burden of
24 befriending and educating their much larger white student
25 peer population.
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1 Q I want you to stand back a little bit further and just
2 look at this as a sociologist or looking at our society.
3 How important is it to our society that we have that kind
4 of diversity and that kind of exchange and education take
5 place in our colleges and universities for the health of
6 our society?
7 A It's absolutely vital, it's life and death vital,
8 because we are a cultural and racially diverse society
9 living within and working and having exchanges within a
10 cultural and diverse and racially diverse global community.
11 So it's absolutely essential that our elite, that our
12 educated population, have those kinds of experiences and
13 that they learn about that wider reality so that they can
14 interact with it more effectively to the benefit of the
15 larger society.
16 Q I think we also heard from some of your testimony that
17 a number of the alumni from these colleges, from Michigan,
18 from Michigan Law School, go on to very important public
19 careers, some become leaders, some go back to the community,
20 civic activities, all sorts of involvement.
21 How important is it that our future leaders be
22 educated in an atmosphere in which there is this diverse
23 population, this interchange of ideas and experiences, and
24 this mechanism to try to deal with some of this ignorance?
25 A I think it's vitally important for the benefit of the
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1 larger society, and it's striking that many of the larger
2 corporations have this understanding clearly in front of
3 them and know from their own experiences and the economic
4 world the value of a diverse work force and the value of
5 leadership that has training and experience with diverse
6 racial and ethnic communities.
7 MR. PAYTON: Thank you very much.
8 THE COURT: Thank you. Plaintiff, would you like
9 to wait until tomorrow?
10 MR. KOLBO: I would. I would, Your Honor. I could
11 be more efficient if I could, as well.
12 THE COURT: That's what we said we were going to do.
13 Professor, enjoy your evening in Detroit. I know
14 you're used to it, being from Michigan.
15 And we will see you all tomorrow at 9:00. Thanks.
16 We will stand adjourned.
17 COURT CLERK: All rise.
18 (Proceedings adjourned.)
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1 CERTIFICATE
2 I, JOAN L. MORGAN, Official Court Reporter
3 for the United States District Court for the Eastern
4 District of Michigan, appointed pursuant to the provisions
5 of Title 28, United States Code, Section 753, do hereby
6 certify that the foregoing proceedings were had in the
7 within entitled and number cause of the date hereinbefore
8 set forth; and I do further certify that the foregoing
9 transcript has been prepared by me or under my direction.
10
11 ____________________________
12 JOAN L. MORGAN, CSR
13 Official Court Reporter
14 Detroit, Michigan 48226
15
16 Date: _______________________
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